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«Cup of Nations 2019»: Rome II Rome II Total War Tournament 1vs1

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Старый 04.01.2019, 21:06   #21
Sofado
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I still dont get why after the great patch nothing has changed in the ruleset.
With a now fairly limited amount of lines a unit may be deployed, it is nonense to continue with Cav favouring rules.

In 1v1s nowadays cav got a lot more space than before, as well as slingers now can easily kill even Elite units because they are blobbed up, the same does count for horse archers.

I would recommend using 4-6-12 or 5-7-13 rules,
of course with some additions for rome ( maybe 3 evo Limit or 1/2 gladiator spears idk)

But what I know is that with that ruleset greeks and barbs wont stand a chance vs a proper kite.
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Старый 04.01.2019, 21:11   #22
Hamilkar Barca
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I would recommend using 4-6-12 or 5-7-13 rules,
of course with some additions for rome ( maybe 3 evo Limit or 1/2 gladiator spears idk)

But what I know is that with that ruleset greeks and barbs wont stand a chance vs a proper kite.
Agreed here, 4/6/12 seems to be the most fair and has been fine in many tournies.

5/7/13 ok, but a bit boring.
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Старый 04.01.2019, 21:45   #23
Graham Bubblefish
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You could also do 4/7/13. Or 5/6/12. Or something else. I'm a big fan of 5 same and find 6 melee silly, but it's all options.
CoN has traditionally been pretty kite-heavy, so you could keep infantry at 12 if you wanted.
One thing I have never understood is the max 8 skirms rule. I have never seen anyone anywhere use more than 8 skirms and still win. Honestly, I'd cap skirms at 5 or 6, since kite is so much stronger this patch.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 00:28   #24
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It's not about making rules which would make kiting even stronger, more about making sure weaker factions are buffed so they could stand a chance, since more or less the outcome of the tournament will depend on what faction you get. For example if you get egypt and I get Arverni or Rome it would be near impossible for you to win if it's more than 5 swords. But with this ruleset it is made so weak factions get buffed a lot. I wish that this tourney was being played on previous patch, since kiting is rly way too good in this version of rome 2, but it would be a real pain in organising it and probably confusing to many players.

Последний раз редактировалось Borislav; 05.01.2019 в 00:43.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 01:44   #25
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Well sure bobi, but I think the point is that 4/5/12 rules benefit kiting too much, so changing that alone would buff ALL non-kiting factions. From there, other rules can be made based on the factions.

4/6/12, imo, is the most balanced RULESET. Does it balance all factions? No, but I believe it is the right starting point. From there, we can change stuff for individual factions to buff them.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 10:39   #26
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4/6/12 is the most fun ruleset. I just don't see what Greeks could do. You wouldn't be able to fight barbs/Rome head-on so you will be forced to kite and gameplay would be kite again, just more favourable for the sword factions. The real problem of Rome 2 is that whatever ruleset is used there will always be something OP.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 10:54   #27
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Tbh I dont see which advantage barbs hold over greeks.

Yes, Hoplites have been nerfed af, but with the blobbed up formation fights will still last longer than they would in the previous patch. Barbs wont be able to use their full charg bonus.
As well now skirmish will decide battles, and greeks, especially factions like Athens,Sparta,Syracuse etc. with access to elite slingers and peltasts as well as decent cav (except Sparta), they should have a fair chance.

The only thing where my human mind stops working is when I see a match greeks or barbs vs eastern factions. They just dont stand a chance.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 11:14   #28
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The issue with CoN is that you can only use one faction. That means that all factions need to be equal in power, or another player will have an unfair advantage.
I'm not saying this is bad necessarily: CoN is a fun concept. In this game it just means you have to put in a lot of effort and create a lot of rules to make it so.
The thing that is giving me pause is that in my experience tournies with a lot of rules constrict flexibility, so you'll see pretty much the same type of army used by every faction. This is only natural, since balancing the factions is such a gargantuan task and you need a certain base-line army to model each faction to.
This usually means that you can either kite, if your faction allows, with an army that looks very similar to all other real kite builds, or go for the default army. In that case you will /always/ max out on infantry and melee if you can, take 2-4 skirms and the rest cav. Very few exceptions. I realise late-game kite is also an option, but not for all factions, since it usually relies on elite shock cav. Pike builds are also an option, but I'm still not convinced of their viability in the new patch and it's still pretty much the default army, but then with a block in the centre that you try to avoid.

...

This turned into a bit of a rant, I'm sorry.
Even with same-y builds it's fun to pitch those factions against each other and see who is strongest (from a fantasy/immersion kind of feel) and it does give you a deeper understanding of your faction through the tournament. Like exactly how good those Noble Fighters are, or if Italian cav wins vs Egyptian cav usually or whatever.
I'm just not sure yet if I'll be signing up this time
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Старый 05.01.2019, 11:26   #29
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Could be also solved the unpopular way.

Tipping the selection in favour of the "weaker" players could equal the factions as well, cuz in the end it still depends on the player`s skill to guide his faction through the CoN.
Since the majority of participants will be russians or slav people I`d give that decision to an admin of the russian community.
I know thats not really kind but it could balance it a bit more ( I still dont see how a proper eastern kite should be blocked by greeks ) .
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Старый 05.01.2019, 12:21   #30
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Tipping the selection in favour of weaker players is not a good idea. It would ruin the whole point of CoN (the point is that you have to play or learn a faction that you may not like) and how will you know which players are good and which are not? How will you know which players are mid-tier? There is no real mp or tournament ranking to get unbiased info about that.
Most of the rules could be replaced by a unit ban system where for some factions you could ban 2-3 units and for others only 1 unit. I think this would be best solution to the problem, but needs to be tested a lot before it is used in tourmanent, especially as big as CoN.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 13:15   #31
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As I said the decision to decide who is weak and who is strong is not mine to make, but I noticed that the majority of players are either russians or already known players, so it would be for the russian community admins to decide.

But yea true I dont really think thats a good way of solving it.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 13:34   #32
Borislav
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Whoever makes the decision it will be biased because it would be based on personal views regarding player's skill level and any decision based on emotion and not on facts is a bad one. But yeah except unit ban or using previous patch + blade balance mod no ruleset would be truly balanced. There is no classical ruleset which would give even chances to all culture groups/factions. So to me this is relatively the best for balance wise and probably the worst regarding fun/variety of builds.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 14:07   #33
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The same does count for the ruleset.

It does still favour kite, and kite is the major method beeing used by russian and eastern players, not by all of them for sure and its not a bad thing, but if you use this ruleset it would create an unnecessary unbalanced situation.
The prolly best method to increase the fun/variety of builds and battles in this tourney would be by just playing with max 6 same and no inf nor melee limit, which would then favour melee heavy factions.

So in order to cross the miiddle in between those ruleset I`d advice 4/6/12 or 5/7/13 ( I attend 5/7/13),
because I assume teh russian admins of this tourney havent played in the new patch , or at least didnt test the ruleset.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 14:33   #34
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There are just a few good kiters in Rome 2 and half of them aren't even playing anymore. ATM it's probably just klayton and stradomski. If most players from rus community were competent at kiting and were using it regularly then you would be right (as comparison I regard myself as 5/10 kiter). I don't like these rulesets because it would be really hard for pike builds to work + very few would use mid-high tier spears as barbs.

Последний раз редактировалось Borislav; 05.01.2019 в 14:46.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 15:05   #35
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If you wanna see rare unit types then it would be the best Idea to increase the inf limit.

If there are so few options people will of course take what they consider is the most cost effective, so I dont understand how that would make units like noble spears or chosen spears appear.

And, of course, a max 5 would give players a lot more freedom of focusin on that tactic they want to use.

4/5/12 limits the options too much and is not balancing either, even less in this patch.
Ive played pike armies with 5-7-13, it works a lot better now cuz the inf does not have enough space to flank a unit, as well as pikes are now thick enough to beat oaths from the front.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 15:33   #36
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Leaving the infantry discussion behind for a short moment: I would very much like to see the limit on Chariots/Elephants lifted or increased. Especially for Chariots.
In my opinion it has never been necessary. I've experimenten with Chariots a lot and a good opponent can always counter them, if prepared. However, with the changes in the last patch, they have become even more vulnerable to missile fire, since the back line always get hit because it doesnt drive underneath the missiles anymore. There is simply no need to limit them. An army with 4 chariots is in no way an unstoppable machine.

Specials have clear weaknesses and are counterable.

If you only allow one special unit, it can be a fun supplement to an army, sure, but if you up the limit you allow for armies really centered around specials, which play very differently than standard armies of say Pontus or Seleucid or Egypt or whatever.

For this tournament this is even more important, since you could play an entire 5 matches against the same opponent with the same faction. Being able to use multiple different kind of builds shows skill and keeps those bo3's/bo5's fresh and allows for some deeper choices in army creation.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 15:38   #37
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Leaving the infantry discussion behind for a short moment: I would very much like to see the limit on Chariots/Elephants lifted or increased. Especially for Chariots.
In my opinion it has never been necessary. I've experimenten with Chariots a lot and a good opponent can always counter them, if prepared. However, with the changes in the last patch, they have become even more vulnerable to missile fire, since the back line always get hit because it doesnt drive underneath the missiles anymore. There is simply no need to limit them. An army with 4 chariots is in no way an unstoppable machine.

Specials have clear weaknesses and are counterable.

If you only allow one special unit, it can be a fun supplement to an army, sure, but if you up the limit you allow for armies really centered around specials, which play very differently than standard armies of say Pontus or Seleucid or Egypt or whatever.

For this tournament this is even more important, since you could play an entire 5 matches against the same opponent with the same faction. Being able to use multiple different kind of builds shows skill and keeps those bo3's/bo5's fresh and allows for some deeper choices in army creation.
Agreed for chariots (but not for elephants) , especially weaker chars like iceni's, but I doubt others would agree, because it would be a pretty big change to the overall meta and ppl don't like changes.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 15:52   #38
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Agreed for chariots (but not for elephants) , especially weaker chars like iceni's, but I doubt others would agree, because it would be a pretty big change to the overall meta and ppl don't like changes.
I can live with just chariots. It won't be such a big change, though. There's few factions that can use chariots. Chariot-centered armies aren't even that strong. Taking a default army is generally a safer choice than going chariots. Also, CoN is traditionally peltast-heavy...

You could say "Max 3 specials, of which max 1 Elephant"
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Старый 05.01.2019, 16:24   #39
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I just haven't tested enough to know for sure about eles, but max 3 out of which 1 ele could be good to spice things up.
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Старый 05.01.2019, 16:41   #40
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Всем привет.
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