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Старый 15.09.2018, 01:16   #1
gamilkara
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Greek Iraklis VS Hamilkar Barca


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Старый 15.09.2018, 05:34   #2
Hamilkar Barca
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who plays first carthage o gamilkara
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Старый 15.09.2018, 15:11   #3
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first for Carthage play Hamilkar Barca
GLHF
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Старый 15.09.2018, 17:45   #4
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first for Carthage play Hamilkar Barca
GLHF
ой, да тут два игрока из 1-ой группы ))
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Старый 15.09.2018, 23:25   #5
deve
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ой, да тут два игрока из 1-ой группы ))
Бобби поддавался
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Старый 15.09.2018, 18:38   #6
Hamilkar Barca
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we do it to prove u right man
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Старый 16.09.2018, 21:30   #7
Hamilkar Barca
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I won 2-1,

Carth 0-1 Syracuse
Pontus 1-1 Carth
Pontus 2-1 Syracuse

really close games, ggwp iraklis
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Старый 17.09.2018, 18:25   #8
gamilkara
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I won 2-1,

Carth 0-1 Syracuse
Pontus 1-1 Carth
Pontus 2-1 Syracuse

really close games, ggwp iraklis
Congratulations on the victory!
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Старый 18.09.2018, 17:00   #9
deve
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Congratulations to Hamilkar Barca, the true carthaginian, for protecting Carthage from greek invasion !
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Старый 18.09.2018, 17:19   #10
Hamilkar Barca
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yes, thankfully i did not have to play any italians.... ))
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Старый 19.09.2018, 08:25   #11
Greek-Iraklis
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GG's. Really good battles. Congratulation to Hamilcar. I hope that will be more Rome 2 Tournaments. Don't stop to create tournaments like this guys. The game now is very good and you should try to get all good players back to the game.
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Старый 19.09.2018, 09:12   #12
Borislav
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Don't you think the game is worse now? Cavalry getting stuck far more/ shield wall, hoplites wall bugging in 9 out of 10 engagements/ chariots almost unusable/ precursor javelins being too strong, for example spear nobles beat picked hoplites. Only good thing about this patch is probably that pikes are very good.
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Старый 19.09.2018, 09:36   #13
Greek-Iraklis
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Well, with the right rules we will have the right unit balance i think.
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Старый 19.09.2018, 17:34   #14
Hamilkar Barca
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Its not that hoplite wall and shieldwall are bugged really, its that now they must be used in a different way (use the ability before combat) and since you can run in hoplite wall/shieldwall, there's no point in not using this ability. Hoplites in phalanx will still beat shitty midtiers like thorax swords or libyan inf (this literally happened in game 1 between me and iraklis).

In some senses, shieldwall and phalanx were bugged before, because you could activate them in the middle of combat, without even going into phalanx formation at all.
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Старый 19.09.2018, 18:13   #15
Borislav
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If you activate before combat the enemy units will surround and destroy your unit (if they have formation attack disabled).Also if you use it like that the enemy swords will just fire all their ammo and they will do more damage because the hoplite unit would be in a more dense formation. I base this on 10-20 test battles. I also tested going into phalanx before the fight and charging in phalanx (you can run while being in phalanx formation) but the hoplite unit gets completely destroyed.
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Старый 19.09.2018, 19:17   #16
Hamilkar Barca
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well if u stand there and eat the javelins, sure, but in a line-infantry setting, where its not 1v1, im fairly sure that since the wrapping swords must not be in sheildwall (and they r not good units, like throax sword), the hoplites can still win. Ive literally witnessed it firsthand as well.

I think the biggest balance issue is, as you said, barbarian spears being able to wrap and use shield screen, making them better than hoplites vs cav and vs inf.

People need to not get so deeply entrenched in their belief that the old meta, and even old balance of units, was the best. I think this tournament, actually, was a good example of why even in this patch, most factions are still viable. They are just viable in different ways than before.

THat being said, I would also still prefer patch 19 logic, especially spaghetti lines. Nothing stops anyone from making a tournament and playing it in p19, or playing with friends on p19, though.
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Старый 19.09.2018, 19:27   #17
Borislav
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Thorax Swords for me are at least 2x better, they even do well vs units such as Chosen Swords. Probably somebody will find a way how to make hoplites work, but I doubt it will be soon. This tournament had limited factions and thus it wasn't good for testing the overall balance. The real test will come with Championship of Russia.
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Старый 20.09.2018, 02:15   #18
Hamilkar Barca
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Ok, here's the result i found from preliminary testing:

Thorax swords do NOT do well vs chosens, they lose with chosen having 60+ men remaining (no shieldwall on either side). Going into shieldwall for either unit makes the result worse for that unit significantly.

For phalanx: Thorax hoplite will beat thorax sword if you charge in, then go into phalanx, and crucially, spam attack orders on the opposing unit like midway through the fight. What will this do? Since the thorax swords wrap, the men in the front get butchered, but the men on the flanks of the hoplite unit do quite well. The fight is therefore fairly close (although hoplites are winning). Spamming the attack order will turn the unit to face the main thorax sword force that's left. Although some men are attacked in the rear, this is decisively better than having most of the men sit there in the middle not fighting anything. Doing this, thorax hoplites win.

- Merc. Veteran Hoplites will kill thorax sword easily, even charging in and not using phalanx.

- Crappier hoplite (for ex. Merc. Etruscans) will lose to thorax sword under any conditions, though using the above method will make it close and it will take FOREVER.k
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Старый 20.09.2018, 04:26   #19
deve
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... Crappier hoplite (for ex. Merc. Etruscans) will lose to thorax sword under any conditions
The problem is that Etruscans hoplites used to win thorax swords on prev patch.

In general I like the idea of this patch. Getting rid of spaggeti lines acomplished 2 things:
- made pikes unbeatable frontally
- made map bigger. Players can no longer stretch army with spaggeti lines and block almost entire map.
- nullified effect of charges through own troops (especially cav through own light inf)
- inf through inf PTs are no longer effctive since unit that being PTed loses too many models going through enemy ranks so no even need to prohibit this in rules (cav through cav PT is still effective though)

But they made 2 mistakes while implementing this
- they did not increase missile block chance, this made skirmishers too powerful while shooting frontally. R2 had best implementation of skirmishers out of all TW games, now skirmishers are too easy to play with and too powerful: before the patch, players needed to get good angles to rack up 100+ kills on skirmisher unit, now it is not difficult to get 100+ kills while shooting frontally. Increase of missle block chance would have solved problem with pilums too.
- bagged hoplite wall. If intent was to implement it the way shield wall implemented in AoC then they should have done the same to shield screen and probably prohibit formations from activating if unit already in melee.

PS: too bad this patch came out too late - more than a year since most good players left competitive R2
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Старый 20.09.2018, 05:10   #20
Hamilkar Barca
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Well I agree, I guess: The fact that swords now beat hoplites isn't necessarily bad (just different), but shield screen not being the same as phalanx is 100% bad. There just needs to be consistency, and we can determine rulesets that will shape the meta from there.

I actually don't mind skirmisher being a bit better, again, this just shifts the balance to some different factions being stronger, not really a huge difference.

But really I dont see why spaghetti must be removed. Like I dont know what prompted CA to randomly think of that. It's not bad, per se, just kind of random.
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