Greek Iraklis VS Hamilkar Barca

[Borislav]

At least 90-95% of the total war community is made of noobs which play campaigns only. And those players were complaining about spaghetti from a long time so CA simply copied some things from ToB and implemented them into Rome 2. The interesting part is that in ToB width is 3 man deep not 4 like in Rome 2.

[deve]

Without spaggeties it is problematic to make pikes strong without making them OP (the alternative is what BaldeMaster did , increase number of models in pike unit) and make small R2 map appear like it is huge Napoleon map without hit on performance. Fixing PT issues in current R2 mechanic is also near impossible without removing spaghetties. So I think getting rid of spaghetties is excellent idea which they implemented in Warhammer and then ported to ToB and R2.

[deve]

Сообщение от Borislav

At least 90-95% of the total war community is made of noobs which play campaigns only. And those players were complaining about spaghetti from a long time so CA simply copied some things from ToB and implemented them into Rome 2. The interesting part is that in ToB width is 3 man deep not 4 like in Rome 2.

What is good about spaggethi lines per se ? Why do you miss them ? If CA adjusted missile block chance/damage from pilums I do not see why it would matter 3 or 4 rank minimum formation depth is.

BTW another good thing about removing spaggeties is that you can easily see your whole army without debug camera.

[Borislav]

Spaghetti lines basically balanced Rome 2. The problem is not that spaghetti was removed but that they did not implement counter balancing mechanics. For example cavalry suck, especially cataphracts which get 20-100 kills vs mid-tier barbs (as we saw from testing).

[Hamilkar Barca]

I mean, spaghetti lines have existed in TW since literally the original RTW. The game was mostly balanced. I saw no need to change it.

As bobi said, a lot of noobs i guess lobbied for the change, especially after it was implemented in Warhammer. But I'm just surprised CA would listen, considering the number of BUGS and GLITCHES which they refused to fix over the years (looking at you, 380 cost pontic nakeds).

This current patch could also become balanced (it's actually pretty close, I think), but before this patch came out, was ANY competitive player saying "you know, if we just get rid of spaghetti, that will solve it"? No. No one even was discussing that idea, which shows how a) p19 was fairly balanced and b) no one really wanted such a drastic change.

But now that we are here (and not going to get reversed) we might as well make the best of it, and that would start with fixing either shield screen OR phalanx/shieldwall bugs.

[deve]

Сообщение от Borislav

Spaghetti lines basically balanced Rome 2. The problem is not that spaghetti was removed but that they did not implement counter balancing mechanics. For example cavalry suck, especially cataphracts which get 20-100 kills vs mid-tier barbs (as we saw from testing).

Spaggeti lines did not balance anything. IMHO they were there just because CA did not think much about their effect on MP. Finally they realized it and got rid of them.
I completely agree that they did not address issues that arose from making formations deeper.
As for cav, they simply could have kept 2 as a min formation depth like they did for skirmishers (btw why they still allow spaggeeties for skirmishers?)

[deve]

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

I mean, spaghetti lines have existed in TW since literally the original RTW. The game was mostly balanced. I saw no need to change it.

R2 has never been balanced. Did you see how many rules we had in latest edition ?
Besides limits to swords, we had to add limits to OP peltasts, prohibit pilums on barb spears, special exceptions for number of same units for garbage factions etc and the most annoying rule to enforce was rule about PTs. Despite all that efforts alot of factions were still underpowered.

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

was ANY competitive player saying "you know, if we just get rid of spaghetti, that will solve it"? No. No one even was discussing that idea, which shows how a) p19 was fairly balanced and b) no one really wanted such a drastic change.

if consider me and AggonyDuck competative then yes there was talks about eleminating of spagetties. Even implemented this in mod for Attila (the purpose was a little different there though).
BladeMaster tried to solve issues with pikes (spaggetties of barb swords wraping around pikes and beat them frontally) in his mode but what CA did is far more elegant.

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

But now that we are here (and not going to get reversed) we might as well make the best of it, and that would start with fixing either shield screen OR phalanx/shieldwall bugs.

Solution for hoplites is easy. Just give higher bonus vs inf like it is done in AoC. This way player can activate wall before engagement without worrying about losing charge bonus.

[Hamilkar Barca]

Сообщение от deve

R2 has never been balanced. Did you see how many rules we had in latest edition ?

Well again, this depends on your definition of balance. There is NO WAY to balance all 36 factions. Imho, there's no point in even trying.

But, 12/6/4 rules are fairly balanced in this way:

Top barbs are balanced with top eastern and top greeks

mid tier of sword, eastern, greek also balanced

same with low tier.

This is the best definition of balance we can achieve.

Сообщение от deve

if consider me and AggonyDuck competative then yes there was talks about eleminating of spagetties. Even implemented this in mod for Attila (the purpose was a little different there though).
BladeMaster tried to solve issues with pikes (spaggetties of barb swords wraping around pikes and beat them frontally) in his mode but what CA did is far more elegant.

This talk was never widespread or widely considered-- this is why blademaster, for example, tried those methods u describe to make pikes better. Maybe in attila, but i never really played this game ))

The reason behind that, i think, is that it was a change that CA had to make, not really something that could be modded (i dont think u can mod max unit depth???)

Which is why that change was so surprising-- that CA would change anything at all (they dont seem to change much except adding more DLC)

[deve]

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

Well again, this depends on your definition of balance. There is NO WAY to balance all 36 factions. Imho, there's no point in even trying.

But, 12/6/4 rules are fairly balanced in this way:

Top barbs are balanced with top eastern and top greeks

mid tier of sword, eastern, greek also balanced

same with low tier.

This is the best definition of balance we can achieve.

12/6/4 does not balance barbs at all. They easily beat all greeks except Sparta just using dumb rush. And they beat all east if you do not disable pilums on cheaper spears. There was a reason we moved to 5 melee 2 years ago. I remember Wolf was arguing with me that hoplite spam will leave no chance to 5 melee barbs - you can see results of our tests at El_Tomato's youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USLP9aIm2aM, in short barbs won 5-1).

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

The reason behind that, i think, is that it was a change that CA had to make, not really something that could be modded (i dont think u can mod max unit depth???)

Which is why that change was so surprising-- that CA would change anything at all (they dont seem to change much except adding more DLC)

I think you guys over-reacting because you did not see any attempts from CA to address R2 issues for very long so hate has built up.
Lately they did way more for R2 than they did for ToB (and ToB is their latest game). They could not really test themself all side-effects of increasing formation depth but in general game is way better now in my opinion. They only need to listen for feedback now and make not adjustments (i.e. frontal missile block chance, min depth for cav, increase bonuses to hoplite wall). Out of top of my head The only problem i do not know how to solve is that whole class of units like nakeds, thracians, painted that relied on cycle-charges are almost useless now. Maybe they should get their charge bonus drastically increased so that they can kill enough from single clear charge.

I am still curuis to hear why everyone so much in love with spagetties ?

[Hamilkar Barca]

I think the real problem is that I don't think CA really cares at all. They used this max depth rule because it was implemented in warhammer and they want to have consistency across games. Does this mean that CA will continue to update the game? I highly doubt it.

What have they done for rome 2 recently besides add DLC and this one patch? All the evidence suggests this was a random, one-time change that was primarily made for Warhammer and was afterwards ported to rome 2 just because they want all the games to look the same.

Why do we like spaghetti? Cuz it tastes good right?

[deve]

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

I think the real problem is that I don't think CA really cares at all. They used this max depth rule because it was implemented in warhammer and they want to have consistency across games.

Then why they haven't ported it to other TW titles including Attila which is newer than R2 ?
I think they did not do that because spagetti lines do not cause problems there (PT are not an issue there and pike implementation is completely different).

Сообщение от Hamilkar Barca

What have they done for rome 2 recently besides add DLC and this one patch?

In less than a year they added 3 DLCs, balancing patch to last DLC and 2 patches to main game that includes changes to campaign

[Hamilkar Barca]

Сообщение от deve

Then why they haven't ported it to other TW titles including Attila which is newer than R2 ?
I think they did not do that because spagetti lines do not cause problems there (PT are not an issue there and pike implementation is completely different).


In less than a year they added 3 DLCs, balancing patch to last DLC and 2 patches to main game that includes changes to campaign

Maybe you're right about them not porting it to attila, but I guess the only way to be sure is if they do eventually fix the bugs this patch brought. You say they made 2 patches to main game, but these were minor in terms of fixing issues in multiplayer.

If they do end up fixing phalanx/shieldwall/shield screen, then you will be proven right, I suppose. But let's remember that they haven't been very good at fixing small-scale bugs (I mean not game-breaking) in the past.

Until CA proves me wrong, I prefer to look at the situation as CA thinking that maybe this change could be good, seeing how it worked in warhammer, and just throwing it on Rome 2 and moving on. I hope I am wrong.

As for changes they have made, adding DLC =/= making changes to the game, that's just so they keep making money. The patches associated with those DLCs were VERY minor and didn't affect the multiplayer competitive games at all pretty much (aside from some small changes, and let's not forget that they REFUSE to fix other small issues *cough* pontic nakeds *cough*)